Astraea says, "Anyway, if you haven't yet, please read the 'meeting rules.' I'm going to start with some announcements, then we'll move on to different topics, and open things up for some discussion. If you have a specific thing you want to bring up, page Eos. If it's related to the topic at hand, just pose something about 'So-and-so would like to speak.' I'll try to let everyone go in turn. It helps if you type things out beforehand so we're not all waiting for you. And if you aren't done, type '(more)' at the end of your pose/comment."

Astraea officially begins the meeting. And I should have taken my own advice and typed this out beforehand, but I ran outta time. Gimme a sec to compose.

Astraea says, "Okay, as you all know (hopefully), there have been some helpful discussions and ideas on the Aether Discussion Forum. Today, I posted a new topic about plot ideas -- what works and what doesn't. I urge anyone to post there if they have thoughts on plots they'd like to see -- or ways to conduct a successful plot. Believe it or not, I do actually take a lot of ideas from the board, and one of the plots we've got in the works now is a serial killer one, suggested by some anonymous player. (more)"

Astraea says, "The main things I would like to cover in this meeting are:

        * Code (new code ideas, combining code)
        * Player Perks (some ideas for rewards other than points)
        * Plots (plot ideas -- what you'd like to see).

I'm saving the plots for last because I'm hoping that will lead to the most brainstorming, and that's when I'll just let folks jump in with ideas. For now, though, I'd like to start with some code-related stuff."

Astraea says, "So first of all, we've introduced some new code, like +ictime, +newbie, +rpaides, and fixing the +noms so they can be made public. If you haven't become familiar with those yet, check +help. One thing I did want to get everyone's opinion on, though, was about +aides and +rpaides. It's set up so that anyone can add/remove themselves from +rpaides, and we're debating doing the same with +aides. However, is there enough of a reason to keep +aides and +rpaides separate? Do you think it would be easier to just combine them, and keep it so that anyone can add/remove themselves from the list? Being on the list would mean helping new players, helping guests, *and* RPing with new players. I'd like to hear some thoughts on that."

Astraea says, "Now's your chance to pipe up if you have an opinion. ;) Just warn us before jumping in, so we can let folks have their turns."

Sarasvati would like to say something.

Astraea says, "Shoot."

Sarasvati says "I think it would be better to combine aides and rpaides. Essentially rpaides are capable of doing everything the aides did, with the added duties of helping out in actual RP circumstances. I think having both is a division of the same position."

Astraea says, "Anyone agree or disagree? If no one else wants to comment, I can just go for a simple vote."

Lailah raises a hand.

Astraea says, "Shoot, Lailah."

Cicero raises a hand, too.

Astraea says, "And when Lailah's finished, Cicero, you can go."

Lailah thinks the two should be separate. You might be an oldtimer and really well versed in the theme, not have an awful lot of time to RP, but still be online and able to chat in pages and things like that. Being 'just' an +aide seems to suit that pretty well.

Astraea says, "If you're done, Lailah, it's Cicero's turn."

Lailah says "Sorry. Done. :)"

Cicero nods. "I agree with Lailah. I'm on both lists, but there are times I may take myself off of +rpaides, because I don't have the time to RP with newer folks to the Mush, but do still have time to answer quick questions. Done."

Astraea nods. Okay. Well, I think I'll just take it to a simple vote (though if you have another comment, pipe up now).

Eos does

Astraea says, "Go ahead, Eos."

Eos says "I understand what Cicero means about not having the time to RP but the time to answer questions. Perhaps you can just be an aide if you want to, but if you agree to be an +rpaide, you should also remain on the newbie channel and act as a regular +aide? Basically you can be an +aide without being an RP aide, but you should be an +aide if you're going to be an rpaide?"

Astraea says, "It's conceivable, too, and if we do end up combining them, we could get Bast to code up a new column -- something like 'RP_OK' or whatever, with a yes or checkmark or something in that column, if you're also an +rpaide."

Astraea says, "Anyway, I'll let folks vote on it. Just go ahead and yell out your vote: Yes (to combine them), No (to keep them separate), or Other (and specify -- like if you want to combine them, but do what I just described, etc). If you feel weird about making your vote public, you can just page it to me and I'll keep a running tally."

Eos votes Other.

Bat Kol votes, "Other...having the columns with RP_Ok checkable..."

Aker votes Yes.

Astraea says, "If you vote other, please specify what the 'other' is."

Aker thought the column was the yes.

Eos says "Oh sorry. I vote Other with the column thingy.""

Livia doesn't care.

Aker votes with Bat Kol then.

Corael votes Other with the column thingy.

Sarasvati votes Other - RP_OK checkable column

Lailah votes the column thing as well.

Igasho votes Other with column thingy

Jasmine doesn't care one way or the other.

WolfEyes votes Other with the columns, that is.

Astraea says, "Okay. If anyone else wants to vote, just page me. I'm gonna move on now."

Astraea says, "These are not necessarily things to discuss in the meeting, because I don't want to get too bogged down. But if you do have opinions, you're free to @mail *staff, me, or post on the discussion forum. These are just some of the things that we have in mind, code-wise, for the future. I want to make y'all aware so that you *can* make your feelings known, if you have strong ones in one way or another. That said, here are some of our future plans:

* +Sheets for +Factions: This will take some futzing and figuring, but I'd like to essentially devise some 'stats' for +factions, that would measure such things as: Resources, Influence, Prestige. It would give +factions more of a hierarchy, and more of a sense of importance -- such as noble Houses vs. outcasts, or what-have-you.

* Supplemental +xp - some sort of "perk" for being an +rpaide, or for playing in public, or for playing with a +newbie. This will likely be tied directly into the +newbie and +rpaide/+aide code, to give players more of an incentive to join the latter, and to interact with the former. But this, too, requires some futzing.

* +gripe - Or maybe some more diplomatic name. This would work the same as +nom, but would allow a player to submit a complaint or some constructive criticism about a person's RP/behavior. It would be broadcast to the Advancement channel along with the +noms, but would be separate from them so that it's not lost in all the spam."

Astraea winces. Yikes. Sorry to be so spammy.

Livia has a question?

Astraea says, "Shoot."

Livia says "Maybe this would be better for the discussion board, but I'll voice it now. +sheets for factions are a great idea, but I have to wonder about the validity of them. Considering most players right now don't even use their own +sheets. How are these stats going to be used? In the respect of, how will they be measured? Will there be a sliding scale? A prestation/status vote. . or? Because a lot of these things look great, but I'm wondering about the impact they're actually going to have on the game, and the purpose of them? And how those things will be quantifiable?"

Cicero raises a hand.

Sarasvati raises a hand.

Astraea says, "Well, I agree. That's why it's going to require some futzing and figuring -- to figure out just how it would work. I don't see this being implemented immediately, but it's something I *would* like to implement, since I think it could help give faction-members some added perks for being *in* a faction. Anyway, go ahead, Cicero, and then Sarasvati."

Cicero wonders if he can speak?

Astraea nods. I said go ahead.

Cicero says "Doh. I missed it in your response. Sorry."

Igasho raises his hand

Astraea says, "The current queue is Cicero, Sarasvati, then Igasho."

Cicero says "Okay, I agree with Livia. Anyone who has read my posts on board 4 and 13 knows I'm supportive of the recent changes. And in general, of staff. I really believe it is their prerogative to give direction to the game, to give it drive. But that is part of the issue. I think what Livia was getting at in her question(and she can correct me if I'm wrong) is that the topics we're discussing are all good and valid, but seem secondary to the greater importance of seeing higher activity levels from staff. I, for one, would like to see more TPs developed. Without scripted endings, since I think they don't hold people's interest for long when we all know what is going to happen. I'd like to see less DARK staffers and more in depth responses from them. I think I've been lucky in that my staff questions have usually been answered well and with attention, but I also know not everyone feels that staff has been as responsive or as active as they could be. This isn't an attack on staff. Like I said, I do support them. But I don't support blindly and I feel it is an important issue here."

Livia nods. It's what I was getting at.

Astraea hmms. Well, I think that's more of a separate issue. And I'd be happy to discuss what y'all want to see from staff, later in the meeting. For now, though, I think the topic is more about new code and how to implement it, or what y'all want to see.

Jasmine has something regarding factions.

Sarasvati waits her turn

Astraea says, "How about if we get into Staff Expectations after this? I'd like to let Sarasvati, Igasho, and Jasmine have their say. And, saying that, I believe it's your turn, Sarasvati."

Cicero says "Err, but our point is that these other issues are less important than the central issues. And we feel like hitting these other topics won't help anything without the central issues of higher staff activity being addressed. I mean, what good is more code, etc without it being supported from a staff level? But okay...I'll shut up now."

Sarasvati would just like to caution against over-coding the game. Code is great when used to good purpose and results that are practical and useful. But it can end up dominating a game over time. I've been on other games where code is taken so far that people end up relying on it too much - where code starts to interfere with RP. It's very easy to get excited about funky cool coding ideas and projects, but I would recommend some caution as well. Using code to entice players has, on other games, gotten the game stuck with players who are there because of the code, not because of the RP. I think time and energy would be better spent on creating new TP's rather than new code. That, I think, will be more rewarding to the players, and if the TP's are faction oriented, will make joining factions more interesting. Speaking for Demetrius, this ties into a point he would like to make later in the proceedings.

Astraea nods. You finished for now, Sarasvati?

Sarasvati says "Yes"

Cicero raises a hand.

Astraea notes, for the record, that these are just some of the changes we're hoping to make -- under the heading of Code. Taht's why it's all code-oriented right now. But it's by no means all of them. I just wanted to have some topic headings to give the meeting a little structure. Is your comment in response to Sarasvati's, Cicero, or is it unrelated? Because Igasho is still waiting.

Cicero says "It is in response to Sar."

Astraea says, "Okay, go ahead. Then Igasho."

Cicero says "I think code is important. Really important. I'd really like to see code that had an impact on the economy. And on resources. My PC is supposedly a leading PC in the Empyre, which theoretically expansive powers at his disposal...but in truth, since there is no real marker for resources or for most issues of important, no one really has to go through him for anything. I mean, literally, you can just pose that you have X, Y or Z and not worry about it. Since there is no code to support an economy, resources, etc. I'd like to see code that'd help actually make things...worth something on the game. At the moment, the strongest motivators in real life do not exist on the Mush. Except sex. But power, money, etc...who cares? Why don't you see anyone ever really contesting for positions of power? Or really caring about money? All the things that drive real stories don't seem to drive things on here. If code can help with this problem, I think it'd be a positive thing for the game."

Sarasvati says "We will have to agree to disagree then. No reply or defense from me - I've made my statement. Igasho, your go. :)"

Astraea nods. Which is the purpose for the +faction +sheets. To help give a sense of structure, hierarchy, and where they rank in comparison to one another. But like I mentioned earlier, I don't know just how it will be structured yet, and I'm certainly open to ideas. I think, though, that this would be better to discuss on the discussion forum to hammer out more in-depth details. Anyway, your turn, Igasho.

Igasho says "About that +gripe. It scares me. A negative (even including positive criticism) +nom can make a Newbie run away. And yes, people are kind and all, but not all of them know who's a Newbie (Newbies would be easy to +gripe on, for they don't know everything in the game). And even for experienced, old-timers players, I'm afraid it can turn into a mess of venting off comments, vendetta-like. I say these comments should be dealt with in private. Who wants to receive rather negative, anonymous comments? And yes, BTW, there is enough code to drown a bunch of Newbies around :) (Usual apologies for typos and all) (Done)"

Bat Kol raises a hand

Astraea says, "Go ahead, BK."

Astraea says, "Before she goes though, let me interject that the +gripes would *not* be made public like the +noms can be. No one else would see them but you and staff."

Igasho says "Still"

Bat Kol says "About the +gripe...I know that sometimes there have been instances to write not so positive +noms...and while we all love to see things that are good about our RP, some issues need to be made known to a character. My concern now, is that these constructive +noms...gripes, if you will, are lost among other +noms, especially if the player is active...newbie or not. Often, they get ignored because of the volume of +noms..therefore not serving the purpose of informing the player of what could be worked on. With a +gripe command that would separate these from the normal +noms, it would have a better chance of being noticed."

Igasho raises his hand

Astraea nods. We had to make the decision a while back about whether or not +noms should include negative comments. Some felt that if you didn't like someone's RP, you just shouldn't +nom them. But in many cases, the comments are the only thing that a panel has to go by, and so they should be used to sway or dissuade a certain vote. Since it's a vote by your peers. Anyway, go ahead and respond, Igasho, but I would like to move this on to the next topic. This debate could be hashed out more on the forum.

Astraea says, "Sorry, Jasmine will go after you, Igasho. Then we can move on -- maybe. ;)"

Igasho has to decline. "Go ahead, Jas :)

Astraea says, "You sure? The floor's yours if you want it, Igasho."

Jasmine isn't sure why we need to be in factions, but anyway, my concern about faction info is outdated info. For example, Ettowealona says the tribe is 5 years old. Well...that's what it said when I started in the tribe...which IC would be about 5 years ago. So for newbies, this can be confusing. An afterthought on factions...by rewarding people for being in factions, it seems like we are penalizing people who would rather not be in one. Your "independents", so to speak. As to code for the economy, I would strongly disagree. I've seen mushes that have it and those that don't. Mostly those that have it, everything begins to revolve around code and not rp. And +gripe..I think Igasho's right. If you have a gripe, talk to that player about it. Privately, and politely.

Jasmine sorries, and took him at his word =)

Astraea says, "Okay, no prob. :)"

Aker throws up his hand for a quick comment.

Astraea says, "We don't have any plans at this point to institute a MUSH-wide economy, but I think this +faction code might at least give players some means by which they can measure their relative power/prestige. Go ahead, Aker."

Aker thinks that perception is my main concern. Supposedly in some circles we have a reputation for snobbishness, I think a gripe would only accentuate that impression.

Astraea says, "I think I'll let folks hash out the debate of To Gripe Or Not to Gripe on the discussion forum. I'm open to suggestions and thoughts on that. Bast has enough on her plate that it's not immediate anyway."

Astraea says, "Anyway, Cicero brought up the subject of staff expectations -- what you guys expect from us and what you want to see. I did start up a topic for that on the discussion forum, but wasn't exactly overwhelmed with responses. Maybe now is a better time, what with the immediacy of a meeting. Does anyone want to start up or add to what Cicero commented on? Does anyone have anything they want to specifically ask that staff start doing?"

Livia has a comment.

Astraea says, "I.e. is there anything you would like to see spelled out in the staff expectations list I plan to add to the news files (whenever it's complete)."

Astraea says, "Go ahead, Livia."

Livia nods and starts composing.

Sarasvati raises her hand.

Livia says "I think what I'm mainly concerned about, is the perception of priorities here. I'm seeing the talk about doing things, but I'm not really seeing how they relate to actually making things better. Rpaides, that's great. Aides, that's great. I don't care whether they're combined or not, as long as they are /doing/ something. There seems to be this concern for all these icing things, things that are more decorations, then things that are the actual problems. There's a concern about staff not responding to mail. Okay, that's great, get them responding. But they also need to be supporting what's going on, and taking an active interest in what the needs and desires of the players are. Even if that's tell them "No, you really can't do that." There's also the concern that staff are more interested in their own alts, and their own projects to the exclusion sometimes of players. This isn't to slam staff. The same is true of VIPs. There's just the sense, at least for me, that some of these priorities, with code and what not, yeah, that's great. But that's a facelift. It's not addressing the problems that got us here."

Livia says "Done."

Astraea says, "Well, I agree. And that's something I hope to remedy. The perception, and the actuality. But achieving that is not, unfortunately, an overnight thing. The best I can say is that I will be vigilant, and I will do my best to ensure that these new expectations are adhered to. And yes, if they aren't, then an admin can be asked to step down (sorry, guys). It's something that may take some time and may include some rocky starts to achieve. But I want to accomplish it. Anyway, go ahead, Sarasvati."

Sarasvati says "First off, I agree with many of Livia's points, thank you for phrasing them so eloquently. In addition, I would like it if staff were to be fully involved and fully informed about any major changes and issues that come up with either the game or players. It is very disturbing when you try to talk to a staff member about something that is going on only to find out that they neither were involved in the decision making process, nor were they given any information or details about the decision or the reasons for it. The staff are, in part, kind of like the players senators and congress .... to an extent they represent us even if we didn't vote for them and often they are the ones that we turn to with questions. To find out that you, the player, know more about what is going on than they, the staff, is disconcerting to say the least. I'm also a little concerned about the focus on OOC things, like coding projects, versus IC things, like integrated plots that reach a broad base of players, or making sure that there are TP's in the workings that each "social area" can interact in at some point. Many TP's are exclusionary, which may not be possible to get around, but if that is to be the case, then having staff help to create more TP's so everyone can sink their teeth into something would be a good thing. Perhaps instead of creating code for the faction lists we would be better served by having various staff connected with the faction, like Yemoja is to the Buccaneers. If factions create RP, it makes a radiating effect that can cross from faction to faction, touching a multitude of players. Okay, that was a little past the topic point. My apologies. :)"

Astraea says, "I planned to get to the subject of TPs and plot/event ideas last, since I figured that would lead to the most brainstorming. Trust me, it's on the agenda. I just wanted to cover things in neat little sub-sections."

Astraea says, "Does anyone have anything more to add on the subject of staff and what you'd like to see from us?"

Cicero raises a hand.

Astraea says, "Go ahead, Cicero."

Cicero says "Well, I have to voice disagreement with Sar. I agree with what Livia was saying. Priorities. I think we've hit some good ones with the changes in consent and the new policies implemented. Now, staff activity and involvement and feedback and attention should also be a priority. I think it is the next logical step. However, I really disagree...extremely with the idea of a democracy in any form whatsoever. I don't like the idea of voting for things on here. I mean, I play on Aether because I trust the Goddess first and foremost, then the staff she chooses. If we take things to votes, then I also have to trust the majority rule of the players...and I don't want to do that. I'd like to see the Goddess give the game direction and leadership, staff implement her decisions and players play within the boundaries setup. I do think staff needs to be informed, but I think that is their duty to do so. I think if staff is telling players that they weren't part of the decision making process, they are actually further undermining the administration. They shouldn't be telling players that. That isn't our business. Staff should be taking the initiative, under the guidelines and rules that the Goddess sets up. But I do agree with Sar; it is important that staff keep abreast of what is going on in the administrative level. It is disturbing to hear when they don't even read the Aether newsletter. Players shouldn't have to do it, but I think it is a must for staff."

Astraea says, "Gimme a sec to say something now."

Astraea says, "I've usually been fairly laid-back as an admin. I'm sure some may disagree with that, but from my perspective, I don't think I've put my foot down too often, or played the role of despot/tyrant, or, for that matter, true leader. For the most part, I give all the admin equal say, whether it's about policies, applications, code ideas, or what-have-you. And I will certainly continue to solicit their opinions and input on most things.

However, if I'm going to get this MUSH to the point I want it at, that's also going to require more of an effort from me. And more cases where I, alone, will have to make some decision or ruling. Whether it involves asking another admin to retire (or 'firing' him/her, if you want to put it more bluntly), deciding some tough new policy on my own, or having a VIP/feature step down if I don't think he or she is doing his job. I'm going to have to be more of a watchdog, and probably tougher as well. That's why I've been saying, on the boards and on the forum, that if you don't like these changes, then now is the best time to leave. Because I will have to do these things, and it won't always be fun, and it won't always be easy. Still, in the interests of making the game more exciting, I'm going to give it a shot. Anyway, my point is that, if you don't trust me, then this probably isn't a good time to be playing the game. I'm not going to turn into Ultra-Super-Bitch-Goddess, but I'm not going to be as laid-back, either. I'm going to do my best to get everyone to do their jobs, and myself included. Anyway, end of speech."

Astraea says, "If anyone wants to say anything, jump in. Otherwise, I'd like to move on to the subject of plots/TPs."

Igasho raises his hand

Astraea says, "Go ahead, Igasho."

Igasho says "Call me Newbie-lover! :) Faction leaders, or higher-ups, could OOCly meet with the Newbies in their respective race. For a short reviewing of the race and the general IC on-goings in their sphere. Add to it a Q&A session with the Newbie, so the new player can ask whatever questions they have. The fact is, an OOCly meeting would give the Newbie a more personalized way to ask questions. It is not always easy to /dare/ page a +staff or a big-wig (and a Newbie might not even know what good question to ask! :). Also, if a +staff or higher-up player could take the time to sit down and be available for an OOC meeting with a Newbie (if the Newbie wants one, of course), I am pretty sure it will help the new players to feel more at ease, especially about IC stuff and on-goings. If +staff have no time for it (which I could understand, I am not discussing that), what about a Newbie Staff, with that specific job to do? Maybe it could have worked if I asked for such meeting myself. But what about it's clearly mentioned? It's often scary to bug +staff :) (Done)"

Bat Kol raises her hand

Astraea says, "I'd like to believe that we're all here to help newbies. At least, that's my intention, and something I hope to emphasize more. I don't really want to have one person with that title, because then I think it lets others slack off and decide 'oh, well, that's not my job.' It should be all our jobs. But go ahead, BK."

Livia raises her hand.

Astraea says, "And after BK, Livia."

Bat Kol says "In response to Igasho, many of the Staff keep their eyes open for the newbies who log on. Often, when they fall within our respective spheres, we check them out, see if they look like they're ok, and page them to see if they have questions. Sometimes, if they look like they're doing all right, we hold off and wait until they come to us. Sometimes, the staffer of the newbie's sphere isn't on to page them. But all the Staffers online are here to answer questions...and we have an excellent web site and news files that offer all the knowledge -we- know."

Astraea nods. I think I'll add something to the expectations list, though, that staff should make it a point to monitor Guests and Newbie channels, along with the +aides, whenever possible. Anyway, go head, Livia.

Livia says "Just something I'd like to throw out, but I think there needs to also be a sense of support for /all/ players. Not just the newbies. Yes, newbies are great and wonderful. Having new people come to the game to play is great. However, if you can't hold onto and keep your 'older' population active, inspired, and fire-starting, you have a huge problem. Part of which being, you've also lost another support system for newbies who could actually do some good and help get newbies into current plots.

Then a note in response to BK. Sometimes, newbies don't know what they want or how to go about getting it. It's not as simple as just answering questions. Or being logged on. Sometimes a newbie may not have any questions, but unless there is a sense of active and interested staff support provided from the beginning, a lot of newbies are just going to either fall off the planet, or become 'mature' players without any sense of a relationship with staff. Web sites and news files are great, but they don't give a sense of appreciation or input."

Bat Kol raises her hand

Astraea says, "Good points, which lead to some ideas like, maybe, regular sphere meetings and/or faction meetings, to get more input from players. Maybe some regular @mails to various faction-leaders, bigwigs, firestarters, +vips, etc, to just check up on 'em. More ideas can go to the discussion forum. Go ahead, BK. Then I'd really like to move on to Plots. ;)"

Bat Kol says "Just about the newbie things, a lot of us -do- page newbies and ask if they're ok, if they have questions, if not then they can page us anytime. I guess, there can be some confusion when some Staffers are dark, or unable to page people. I guess I'm saying we can't catch everyone all of the time, but we try to catch as many as we can :-)"

Astraea says, "I think Livia was just bringing up some points in general -- not necessarily directed at any admin in particular. As for going dark, I'd really like to see that be a last resort, and I'm going to emphasize that in the expectations list. Buuuut, any other discussion on this topic can take place on the web-board. Now, I'd like to get into TPs/plots."

Igasho wonders if he can ask about a building? "It's related to TPs"

Astraea says, "A lot of players have mentioned that they'd like to see some more inclusive plots. Stuff that isn't just political and revolves around the bigwigs of a sphere. I'd like to do that too. The question is *how*. One of the plots we have in the works now, prompted by a post on the forum, is for a good ol'-fashioned murder mystery, involving a serial killer. That should give players something to react to.

Some other ideas I jotted down while at work were:

        * Festivals (I'd still like to do the Day of the Dead some time)
        * Getting a slave ring/black market going
        * Possible mongrel uprising
        * Sylvan trader/council meeting (maybe with a storytelling festival combined)
        * Conflict between Decemvirates (or just anything that would get some action going with the Atlanteans).

Now, this is your chance to cite some ideas of what *you'd* like to see. If not specific, then generic."

Igasho sorries

You paged Igasho with 'Page it to me?'.

Igasho pages: It will be spammy

Sarasvati raises her hand again. :)

Astraea says, "Go ahead, Sarasvati."

Olivia enters the grand hall from the branches of the World Ash beyond.

From afar, Igasho spams. "We were rping the other day and the subject of the unfinished orphanage came up. Though it was pointed out ICly that many of the underfed/poorly clothed children are that way not because they are homeless but that their parents can't afford to feed/clothe them (lack of jobs, perhaps). So...we were brainstorming ways that some of these people might be able to get jobs. We were thinking of proposing to the Merchant guild that they set up some sort of weaving shop/factory (not with machines obviously, just human labor). To the best of our knowledge all of Haven's cloth is currently imported. This way, we could import raw materials (wool/cotton) and weave the cloth in Haven. The Merchant's guild pays the salaries of the workers, and splits the profits among themselves. So the question is... can we pursue it?

You paged Igasho with 'Oh, certainly. I like that idea, actually. :)'.

Sarasvati says "Okay, this might be a bit lengthy. First, I suggest starting some TP's that are smaller and really long term connections rather than TP's - but still they inspire RP and plots.

For example, we have/had diplomats and ambassadors ... but often when one asked another to RP a meeting, the response was, "What about?" So creating various and sundry small details of government, treaties, policies - things that the races must get together to discuss ICly.

With the factions, there could be relationships drawn and created that require regular contact and RP. For example, with the Buccaneers, we have made IC arrangements of an interesting nature with a certain Atlantean Decemvirate. Unfortunately I don't think either side as enough players or organization yet to take advantage of the tremendous opportunities this provides. Demetrius has also been approached by the local crime group because clearly all those pirates need to find a way to discreetly fence all the goods they can't melt down and recast.

TP's area all well and good, but they tend to be like big exciting explosions - they rise up, they come down, but in the end everything is often (not always) the same. When the Aesir came and attacked Haven, that should have had a much larger effect on the city, but it didn't. I think that in addition to creating TP's that there should be more attention given to creating links between factions/groups/races. There is a lot of reasons why all of these are divided - I think it would be good to find reasons to link them together as well."

Sarasvati says "This would create self-sustaining RP interactions, versus just TP events. Something long standing."

Astraea nods. And, sorta taking that idea further, I'd like to see the staff work on creating those bridges or tie-ins. Weaving plots together, introducing old ones thought defunct, playing NPCs or feeding info that might help establish connections. All that stuff. To give the sense of a more cohesive storyline than just a bunch of random plots. That's something I hope to work on.

Astraea says, "Anyway, I hate to do this, but I need to wrap up soon (company's coming over). I'd like to open up the last part of the meeting to just general brainstorms. Don't worry about the queue. Just spit out anything you can think of. Plot ideas, new code ideas, whatever. I'm logging all this, so I can read it later if it gets too spammy."

Astraea says, "And I'll be posting it on the website as well, whenever I get it edited."

Itzpapalotl says "With Yemoja not here, I'll spit one of her ideas out - something ancient found deep in the sea, it is being brought out to land... Something that affects Pasiphae as a religion, and possibly others as well."

Sarasvati says "Would be curious to see a long-arching plot event - something that takes a while to build up, a while to be discovered and happening, and a while to go away. Something that is convoluted and involved on a long term level, kind of like what Kuronbo was trying to do while he was here way back when."

Bat Kol says "I know the City Sylvans have had a sort of on-going thing with some ancient artifacts right here in Haven..."

Astraea sent an email to staff once about a possible "circus" coming to Haven. A caravan of gypsy-like traders, with all sorts of interesting imports and maybe some strange animals or races from beyond the 'known world.' They could stay for a week or so, and then move on. Might be fun and out of the ordinary.

Astraea would like to see the slave ring started up if only to have some mean ol' slave-traders going out and capturing graisha, mongrels, and the like to fight in the arena, or to be sold at the market. We need more scuzzy bad-guy types.

Igasho has weird ideas sometimes. "What about a time traveler? From the real Earth? Just to give someone (race?) a secret weapon? Could be in junction with a Mongrel uprising. (yup, probably crazy :) Oh well :)

Astraea chuckles to Igasho. There's a potential that another rift-mage could pop up (they were an ancient breed of mages that died out a long time ago). That would allow for such a thing. But that's something that would require a lot of thought, and I'm not sure I want to attempt it just yet. Something for the backburner, though.

Jasmine thought there already had been a couple slave ring plots? I know there was one that was capturing graisha a couple years ago...I believe the leaders disappeared without being captured.

Corael says "Deianyra's clan, the Cahr'Dhaki, might be a viable idea for a clan of merchants, artisans, gypsy types."

Bat Kol says "Some Sylvans have been captured again and sold on the slave market..."

Igasho hides :)

Sarasvati says "We don't have enough "bad" guys and with good reason ... it's no fun to put a lot of work into someone only to get them knocked off or caught. Perhaps we could work out something where there are some established bad guys/criminal groups/etc that people can RP in the short term - like a villian bank. So people who are looking for a villian can say, "Hey I would like a villian that looks/acts/does this ... and if someone was interested in doing something different for awhile they could say, "Hey! That sounds like fun for a change, sign me up!""

Corael says "Villain bank, kewl. :)"

Corael says "Like pregen villains! :)"

Jasmine oohs at Sarasvati's idea. "Villain bank...pregen, yeah!"

Sarasvati chuckles. :)

Astraea nodnods. Oh yeah, forgot to mention the +pregen idea. That's another code-thing we're gonna do. Bast is working on it, and I hope to be able to 'unveil' it soon.

Astraea says, "But some pregenerated villains or a "villain bank" might be a cool way to keep a steady supply of bad guys in play."

Livia notes, some of us aren't willing to go as 'bad as bad can be' because there hasn't been a support system for it.

Sarasvati says "Exactly my point ... and then you can also create stories around them and they can in turn inspire other players to ideas. :)"

Astraea says, "Btw, just to inform everyone, apparently there are some problems with mux.net. It may go down any second. We're trying to find out more about it. But this is probably a good time to wrap up."

Livia says "Bad guys have been treated like second class citizens, to the 'heroes/good-guys' of the game, and end up as NPCs, who are expect to die, roll over, and get squished at the end of the story."

Sarasvati says "Be a villain for a day ... or a lifetime. >;)"

Bat Kol says "I think a lot of that had to do with the consent issue...now, it might give the bad guys more of an edge..."

Jasmine says "Oh, there are some people out there willing to be downright evil."

Corael giggles.

Herne grins and knows there are, Jasmine. ;)

Olivia nods. "Because too many people want to be the hero who outdoes the villain. It was very, very tough for me to play Pasithea because of reactions I got in RP."

Sarasvati noddles. I think that certain villains should be able to escape capture - they certainly do/did throughout history.

Herne has had similar trouble.

Bat Kol has also...

Amipal says "Consent isn't going to do much about that either way. There are plenty of potent, well-connected good guys wandering around, as you would expect."

Astraea thinks we could use some more bigots and racists -- not even necessarily villains. Just more hardliners who react more appropriately (for the time period) to uppity mongrels, 'barbarians,' interracial relationships, etc.

Eos nods. "Heroes tend to like to solve the puzzle and win the day and do it as fast as possible, but that only squashes the bad guys who want to have fun too. :)

Itzpapalotl tosses her hat into the evil ring as well...

Bat Kol says "Bigots and racists are very difficult to play when everyone else about is all politically correct and yell at you when you're not :-)"

Olivia says "Cressida didn't seem to care, BK. ;)"

Eos nodnods and agrees with Bat

WolfEyes already plays bigots and racists and slave-owners, and the reactions I get vary from 'wow' to 'how could you even think such a thing', both IC and OOC.

Sarasvati says "For myself, I would like to see some situations where the bad guy wins. What if no one was able to assassinate Emperor? What would that have done to the Empyre? How might the other races tried to get a piece of the pie? I think there should be more villians who get away with it."

Astraea says, "So I think we, as staff, need to help discourage that politically-correct mentality."

Livia says "Support."

Bat Kol says "It's difficult, Olivia, when those who are bigots are shunned for RP because they aren't all politically-correct :-)"

Herne nods. "When the only RP you get is with other bigots, it sort of derides the point."

Jasmine actually likes playing with the bigots...fully charged rp. I'm just no good at playing one.

Olivia says "Well, yeah, but people are shunned for RP for BEING politically correct too. We just need to remind others, constantly, this isn't PC-America-2002. :) Herne's right; we just need variation."

Sarasvati tried to create a villian, but it felt so completely daunting because every body wants to be the hero and the tough guy and be able to beat you down. Having some staff support to be an "established" villianous character would be helpful in getting other players to respond appropriately to such characters. Hard to be in awe of a villian when he is new to the game

Astraea says, "Well, that's something we can all work on. And I would like to provide the necessary support for 'villainous' types. I think it's a concerted effort, though. I don't see anyone here saying 'no, no villains, good guys rule!' It sounds like everyone *wants* to interact with some baddies, racists, bigots, etc. So at least the desire is there. We just all have to make sure they get the necessary support and aren't lambasted OOCly for what they're trying to accomplish."

Jasmine notes that there are regular PCs already on the shady side, who can be convinced to be villains (like when BlackHands kidnapped Jas' baby.)

WolfEyes grins evilly.

Olivia says "Or don't get into arguments with players who want just to 'win'. The 'win/lose' mentality just shouldn't exist in RP. IMHO. :)"

WolfEyes says "I agree with you, Olivia. But it does exist here."

Itzpapalotl says "It's a tough balance to get any mu*. Unless you're already dancing in a darkly mirrored one to begin with."

Olivia says "Yep, it does, WolfEyes. And not just here; it's on most games."

Cicero chuckles. "Well, you will have PCs trying to accomplish goals. And will be in direct conflict of other PCs. It is just like in RL. :) I think it is important to step back and be able to accept that your PC may not be 'victorious' in a specific goal. I think sometimes, people can't do that. Which is why we've got the new consent policy. Thankfully." :)

Sarasvati says "Villains need staff support - I recall one situation where a mongrel was insulting a villian ... the sort of thing that wouldn't be allowed without serious retribution, but the villian didn't have the OOC power to say, "Okay, well, realize that you're in big trouble now and two guys are gonna come to your house and break your legs" sort of thing."

WolfEyes says "This is the most extreme I've seen it, though. And yes, hopefully the new policy will let me actually do the things I've been wanting to."

Amipal says "The machinery of virtue and right, however variously defined, is well-developed and looking for trouble. Here as on most games. As has been said, without special arrangements with the staff, your isolated shifty fellow is likely to be pinched but quick."

Astraea says, "Anyway, I'm afraid I need to head out. I'm gonna cut off my log and 'officially' adjourn the meeting. But if anyone wants to stay and talk or hash out ideas, feel free. Just @mail me or post on the forum if you come up with anything good. Thanks for coming, y'all. I'll get the log edited and posted asap."

Olivia says "Take care, Star."

Cicero says "Really, WolfEyes? Actually, Aether is the least extreme I've seen it on any Mush."

Igasho waves at Star

Olivia agrees with Cicero.

Eos says "Bye Star!"

WolfEyes waves to Star.

Astraea waves and bamfs. :)

FIN